Curse

Chthon · Feb 27, 2008, 04:41 AM // 04:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

I'm not sure why you're singling out Avarre, as it has nothing specifically to do with him.

He's responsible for the great big duality thread that popularized the idea. Even if he didn't have the idea first, he was the first to express it in clear, cogent, widely-read terms. In my book he gets the credit. (And also some of the blame for the asshattery it's caused on the forums, for instance in the posts deleted from this thread.)

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Even with Ursan, you can play slightly smarter than tank-n-spank - not that you have to or that anyone does, but you can. There is no potential for learning or playing well with tank-n-spank beyond tank-n-spank mentalities;

Tank-n-spank itself involves a certain level of skill -- Managing aggro, balling monsters, corner blocking, casters flitting in and getting back out, e-managment on the tank, coordination, and timing. None of this is earthshaking or anything, but compared to Ursan's everyone-run-in-and-go-roar tactics, it's much more "skillful." (And the same can be said as compared to duality's everyone-run-in-and-go-SY/TNFT tactics.)

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additionally tank-n-spank doesn't work in nearly as many settings as other strategies do.

Absolutely true. I'm not arguing that tank-n-spank is the best strategy for the whole game. Far from it. It's just something that works particularly well -- better than anything else, even -- in a limited number of areas.

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As far as bonding goes, people don't use it because it's particularly fragile, and tanking mostly died after the AoE/gear tank nerfs. Bonding works well if your tank-n-spank is going well, but if it isn't you're completely screwed.

Again, true. Bonding is fragile, and tank-n-spank is fragile too. Strategies that use unstrippable (and partywide) buffs like shouts and ursan are much, much move forgiving of mistakes. Then again, one can at least hope that your team is going to do things right regardless of which strategy they adopt.

Stormlord Alex · Feb 27, 2008, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Tank-n-spank itself involves a certain level of skill -- Managing aggro, balling monsters, corner blocking, casters flitting in and getting back out, e-managment on the tank, coordination, and timing.

Asides from not having the little red dots inside your little white circle on the casters, the only guy who really needs any 'skill' in tank n spank is the tank himself - all the balling, cornerblocking, aggro and pulling is handled by him, heck, even keeping mobs rooted is his problem as well - the casters just hammer their keyboards with their faces to blow shit up (and, in truth, the SH/SF bars run in tank n spank PuGs really are that easy to play)

Savio · Feb 27, 2008, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

He's responsible for the great big duality thread that popularized the idea. Even if he didn't have the idea first, he was the first to express it in clear, cogent, widely-read terms.

People realized the paragon was imbalanced the moment it was introduced, more than a year before some silly thread.

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Tank-n-spank itself involves a certain level of skill

Nothing beyond what you use in tank-n-spank though, and a lot of it is mindless. With Ursan (or anything else) you can prioritize targets. With other builds you can play defensively too, or be flexible enough to deal with mistakes. Tank-n-spank emphasizes certain strategies which are useless when you try to do anything else.

Racthoh · Feb 27, 2008, 05:51 AM // 05:51

This is where I'm confused then; why are we trying to promote a strategy that is more fragile, and requires perfect execution everytime, while not providing any real benefits at all? All you will learn from using that strategy is how to execute that one strategy.

Coloneh · Feb 27, 2008, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

This is where I'm confused then; why are we trying to promote a strategy that is more fragile, and requires perfect execution everytime, while not providing any real benefits at all? All you will learn from using that strategy is how to execute that one strategy.

because people are stupid and insist on clinging to the traditional way things have been done, the archetypes that have been around since RPGs were invented.

gerg-nad · Feb 27, 2008, 01:54 PM // 13:54

I am sorry I brought up the subject, as my point was bonding and the most useful or time you need bonding is probably a Trinity Team.

I have a lot of fun playing in teams that have specific roles, whether it be a Wall of Steel team, a Trinity team, a 600Famine Smite, where the teams have to be built a certain way to take advantage of each others roles. My point was not to say one team build is better than another, my point was many folks have not used bonds and when they do they don't leverage all synergy that bonds may have to offer.

If you would like to discuss the pros and cons of team and team builds please just start another thread.

i wantz my account back · Feb 27, 2008, 03:02 PM // 15:02

there is a problem in any place other than 4 man zones for the bonder HB because u are exposed to put life bond on you whole party not just one or 2 ppl and not to mention if you are bonding its nice to have life barrier because the massive damage reduction on the main tank also anther thing wrong with that build is that any time you maintain a skill on someone you want to have blessed sig to get you energy back to maintain the bonds

Chthon · Feb 27, 2008, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

This is where I'm confused then; why are we trying to promote a strategy that is more fragile, and requires perfect execution everytime, while not providing any real benefits at all?

It provides 2 benefits, one of which is legitimate:

1. In a few particular areas, it's just faster. With big enough mobs, tank-n-spank done right is faster than anything else (also done right) because of the way it leverages AoE to the hilt.

2. It's easy to find PUGs b/c people still insist on it. Knowing how to bond for a tank-n-spank group can get you parties. Things probably shouldn't be this way, but they are. So why not take advantage of it?

(Btw: I am not "promoting" tank-n-spank here so much as opposing mindlessly bashing it, and the poor OP, on the basis of "I runz teh dualityz so I'm leet and your noobz!! lolzerskates!")

Trvth Jvstice · Feb 27, 2008, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Bonding works great in many situations, especially when the Warriors are able to hold aggro, which is made a lot easier if they are spamming SY.

Since you mentioned pugs, you'll find that most of the elite players that post here do NOT play with pugs. Personally, I love playing with pugs, it makes the game so much more chaotic and fun.

gerg-nad · Feb 27, 2008, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by i wantz my account back

there is a problem in any place other than 4 man zones for the bonder HB because u are exposed to put life bond on you whole party not just one or 2 ppl and not to mention if you are bonding its nice to have life barrier because the massive damage reduction on the main tank also anther thing wrong with that build is that any time you maintain a skill on someone you want to have blessed sig to get you energy back to maintain the bonds

My point is not the choice of bonds, such as Life Barrier, it is how this one skill on the HB healer in this type of team can work to provide energy and significantly help make the monks job much easier. This bond on the HB monk is not really helping the tank, but helping the monks do their job. So my post is not about which team is better or whether you should run this or that team, its about bonding and how it can not only be used to protect folks but in some circumstances can help make the monks job easier.

With a good team of this type no one else but the tank need Life Bond or any bond on them except the monks. The only occational time folks in the back would need anything is the occational spell cast on the group in the back or possible the 1 leak. Life Barrier does work well in conjunction with Life Bond, but for high degen area with conditions and hexes, additional healing such as Zealous Bendiction or Blessed Light seem to be a better choice for an elite. If the area is mostly direct damage and lots of it I would agree with Life Barrier.

My point is Life Bond on the HB monk (in conjuction with Balth on them) provides energy while the tank is getting hit, so spamming any healing spells is not limited by energy. In addition Seeds of Life can be used through the bonds so the monks can stay back and concentrate on healing and out of danger for most of the time.

The bonder does have Blessed Signet, which is used primarlily between conflicts, since with balth on the bonder while the tank getting hit there will be no energy issues. Also it at those times that if the bonder wants to stay busy they can put up bonds on more than the tank, when possibly the other team members may need it. I have had the limit of 14 bonds on team members when the tank is getting hit. Between conflicts the bonder can take off bond to better manage energy as there will be little need for the addition bonds between groups. If you used many more bonds Mantra of Inscriptions many need to be put on the bar and used to recharge Blessed Signet faster.

When running with guildies in this type of team we can easily set up this way and coordinate, but with PUG groups there is limited experience with bonding and how it works, so often folks do not understand, so do not cooperate. Once you have monked it this way you will recognize and get spoiled with all the energy you have and the less pressure the monks have on them to be up near danger.

Dr Strangelove · Feb 27, 2008, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

This is where I'm confused then; why are we trying to promote a strategy that is more fragile, and requires perfect execution everytime, while not providing any real benefits at all? All you will learn from using that strategy is how to execute that one strategy.

The only real bonus to tank + nuke is that it's completely retard-proof. Each players has one very simple task to perform, which minimizes points of failure. For example, the eles flail angrily at their keyboard, and the monks press blessed sig on recharge.

In short, it's an awesome strategy if you or your 7 friends are drooling nincompoops incapable of any strategy more complex than randomly pressing buttons on a predetermined build.

For people with a functioning cerebral cortex, it's both more entertaining and successful to run more diverse builds.

Racthoh · Feb 27, 2008, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. In a few particular areas, it's just faster. With big enough mobs, tank-n-spank done right is faster than anything else (also done right) because of the way it leverages AoE to the hilt.

I can't see it being faster. Even when considering Urgoz and The Deep with their massive mob sizes the fastest times are with B/P and Ursan. There are two areas that come to mind that might be quicker with a tanknspank approach; Slavers's Exile and Shards of Orr. This is more due to the fact that you actually face a fair amount of physical shutdown (5 Blinding Surge in one group zzzzzz) not because the mobs are of a larger size. But a team of Mel's dervs would probably stomp Shards of Orr, and a group of Ursan would crush Slaver's with ease.

If it's your very first time entering a new zone then tanknspank would be a safe strategy to use, and yes probably faster than a more balanced group that is unfamiliar with the task ahead. Once the balanced group has been through the zone a few times they can recognize patterns and bring stronger skill setups. Tanknspank is just tanknspank; you might bring Spellbreaker because of enchantment strips.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2. It's easy to find PUGs b/c people still insist on it. Knowing how to bond for a tank-n-spank group can get you parties. Things probably shouldn't be this way, but they are. So why not take advantage of it?

In that case I would be telling people to stop PuGing and hero/hench instead. If you want to play with people routinely find a guild. Don't resort to PuG tactics and develop the mentality about the trinity professions being the only viable way to play this game.

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Originally Posted by gerg-nad

My point is Life Bond on the HB monk (in conjuction with Balth on them) provides energy while the tank is getting hit, so spamming any healing spells is not limited by energy.

Okay but once you stop playing with bonds then what? You lose your energy engine, the only strategy you've learned to play. This is the same reason I hate Blood is Power; running gimped builds because managing energy is apparently too much of a burden.

Bonding and tanks go together. They're both wasted space, 16 skill slots to be exact. Passive defense won't take more than a few slots on a few characters; SYgon for example takes 4 or 5 (depending on how you look at it) and still allows the character to provide offense.

cellardweller · Feb 28, 2008, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Bonding is dead even if you tank'n'spank.

[skill]shield of absorption[/skill][skill]protective spirit[/skill][skill]spirit bond[/skill]
These skills (which are present on pretty much every paired hybrid monk bars), and their interactions lead to semi decent monks (read: heroes) being able to comfortably maintain invincibility without sacrificing thier own effectiveness or wasting a party slot on a dead weight bonder.

The only worthwhile maintained enchantment is the one that you've missed:
[skill]essence bond[/skill]
This allows a good agro magnet to fuel high cost spammy skills like blessed light.

Chthon · Feb 28, 2008, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Bonding is dead even if you tank'n'spank.

[skill]shield of absorption[/skill][skill]protective spirit[/skill][skill]spirit bond[/skill]
These skills (which are present on pretty much every paired hybrid monk bars), and their interactions lead to semi decent monks (read: heroes) being able to comfortably maintain invincibility without sacrificing thier own effectiveness or wasting a party slot on a dead weight bonder.

Except for precasting (and PS is the only one that really last long enough to precast), none of these skills can be cast on a tank-n-spank tank without risking an aggro break.

Coloneh · Feb 28, 2008, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Except for precasting (and PS is the only one that really last long enough to precast), none of these skills can be cast on a tank-n-spank tank without risking an aggro break.

uhm.... just having 3 enemes on 1 character not dealing any damage is risking an aggro break...

cellardweller · Feb 28, 2008, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Except for precasting (and PS is the only one that really last long enough to precast), none of these skills can be cast on a tank-n-spank tank without risking an aggro break.

Thats why balthazar gave you corners

gerg-nad · Feb 28, 2008, 06:56 PM // 18:56

The thread keeps going on about bonds are dead and this team and that team build are better. In the team where you have a tank, one who takes the damage, and damage dealers and monks that stay back, I am pointing out that one bond on the healer, which is more effective than essence bond, can help. That's all, and I get no comments about that fact I get folks talking about why bring bonds or this team is better or that.

If you want to talk about teams start a new thread and discuss that. The game has once clear leading team for overall effectiveness and efficiency, Ursan for PvE.

In almost all cases the Ursan team beats every other team. So throw 5 or 6 max Ursans and some healing monks and any 3 year old will beat just about any area HM or NM, just keep the aggro managable. My thread was not about teams, it was simply use life bond in conjuction with balthazar to provide energy and Seeds of Life swaping (aggro maintenance), nothing more.

ender6 · Feb 28, 2008, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by ender6

No one misunderstands the "synergy".

you are:
"...fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."

You are mistaken, I replied to your Life Bond + Balzth Spirit synergy on the first page of the thread.

Tyla · Feb 28, 2008, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by gerg-nad

In almost all cases the Ursan team beats every other team. So throw 5 or 6 max Ursans and some healing monks and any 3 year old will beat just about any area HM or NM, just keep the aggro managable. My thread was not about teams, it was simply use life bond in conjuction with balthazar to provide energy and Seeds of Life swaping (aggro maintenance), nothing more.

Tell me, why are 3 year olds playing a game thats rated +12 age req?
And who said age ment anything about in-game skill?

Also: If you're thread was about Life Bond + Balthazar = energetic synergy, whats the point in putting a point that was already known by so many in a thread?

gerg-nad · Feb 28, 2008, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Tell me, why are 3 year olds playing a game thats rated +12 age req?
And who said age ment anything about in-game skill?

Also: If you're thread was about Life Bond + Balthazar = energetic synergy, whats the point in putting a point that was already known by so many in a thread?

Its not simply the energy, its that Seeds of Life will trigger through the bonds and that the HB, which one would not think of putting a bond on their bar, would benefit. It may be well known to many, so I appologize if I am bringing up something well known, but I find that many that are healing in conjunction with a bonder, are not using this technique in these type of teams. So for those that are healers in conjuction with a bonder monk, why are they not using this technique. (just those that are bonding need reply)